Update on New Maps (2018-09-29)

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Expand view Topic review: Update on New Maps (2018-09-29)

Re: Update on New Maps (2018-09-29)

by Rex Claussen » Mon Oct 01, 2018 13:24

Ed the Bat wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 20:12
... we still need a way to accommodate them. If Doom 2 isn't being loaded alongside the game, these monsters will have no sprites and sounds. I suppose I could copy in the files from Freedoom, or something, or stop players from playing these maps unless Doom 2 is detected...
No, this is a hacky solution, and defeats the purpose of your efforts. I will remove the Doom enemies in the existing maps and replace them with H-L ones. In which case, I'll abandon my idea of creating new versions of the 2 existing maps (while still keeping the original 2 maps). I will still plan on making a small secret map, to which the player will go if s/he finds all 6 secrets in "Six Ways to Die"). I fear that some players haven't played "Space X" because they haven't found all 6 secrets; the amount of effort we put into "Space X" map was so great that it deserves to be played.
And I have held off on converting the maps to UDMF, specifically so as to help accommodate your mapping. I know you prefer older tools that don't support UDMF, and that's totally fine with me. I do feel it might be useful to you to someday spend some time playing with a newer tool like GZDoom Builder Bugfix, but I'd never try to force you. Besides, converting to UDMF would only grant me a few small conveniences, so it's no big deal to stay with Hexen format, for now.
It's good to know I can work with HeXen format for the time being. I do plan to learning mapping in UDMF, and I already know how to map with DB2 (which is pretty much the basis for GZDB BF). But that might not happen soon, as I am juggling multiple projects at the moment.

Re: Update on New Maps (2018-09-29)

by Ed the Bat » Sun Sep 30, 2018 20:12

Then yes, I misunderstood. Well, if we're keeping the Doom monsters in "Six Ways to Die" and "SpaceX", I can certainly go along with that, but we still need a way to accommodate them. If Doom 2 isn't being loaded alongside the game, these monsters will have no sprites and sounds. I suppose I could copy in the files from Freedoom, or something, or stop players from playing these maps unless Doom 2 is detected...

And I have held off on converting the maps to UDMF, specifically so as to help accommodate your mapping. I know you prefer older tools that don't support UDMF, and that's totally fine with me. I do feel it might be useful to you to someday spend some time playing with a newer tool like GZDoom Builder Bugfix, but I'd never try to force you. Besides, converting to UDMF would only grant me a few small conveniences, so it's no big deal to stay with Hexen format, for now.

Re: Update on New Maps (2018-09-29)

by Rex Claussen » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:40

Ed the Bat wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 15:17
I am 100 percent in favor of #1. Ever since I turned the project into a standalone ipk3, I've been worrying about how to accommodate the Doom monsters. I'll be happy to see them replaced.
I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't thinking of changing the existing maps to replace the DooM enemies; merely copying those maps into 2 new map slots and changing the enemies (and, in the case of the space station map, reversing the game-play progression).

However, if you need the DooM enemies in the existing maps to be swapped out for H-L enemies, I can do that in lieu of my current plan. The main problem I foresee is if you've converted the original map formats from HeXen to UDMF. I won't be able to work in the UDMF format, never having learned how. I could, of course, make the changes in the current (HeXen) format, and you can convert them and add whatever modifications you've already made to those maps.

Let's split this discussion into another thread.

Re: Update on New Maps (2018-09-29)

by Ed the Bat » Sat Sep 29, 2018 15:17

I am 100 percent in favor of #1. Ever since I turned the project into a standalone ipk3, I've been worrying about how to accommodate the Doom monsters. I'll be happy to see them replaced.

Re: Update on New Maps (2018-09-29)

by Rex Claussen » Sat Sep 29, 2018 13:48

Update on Sept. 29, 2018

Map 29 (Space Station): I have Made some progress on the interior of the space station's "spindle". It, too, is built with 2 levels and the challenge is to make one level distinguishable from the level above.
Map 30 (Xen Space): All mapping had already been completed
Map 31 (Xen Space): This is a map set in 3 craters. All mapping for one of the craters is done
Map 32 (Xen Temple): This is a map set in the interior of a quasi-temple. About 15% of the mapping is done

I am considering re-purposing 2 of the "bonus" maps in Paranoiac. These are the 2 maps in the stand-alone "Obliteration" chapter, and I'm proposing the following:

1. I want to remove the DooM enemies and replace them with Half-Life enemies
2. The normal exit in the first of the 2 maps will take you to the second map (the massive space station).
3. I am considering creating a small map to which you'll go if you find the secret exit in the first map.
4. I want to reverse the progression of the space station map, so that the player is starting from the original exit point and returning to the original start point.

Oh, and the mapping part of the project has a name: Parallax

Re: Update on New Maps (2018-06-20)

by Rex Claussen » Wed Jun 20, 2018 17:09

I agree that "reality" is a fluid concept in computer games, and we can bend it to suit our needs.

As for using Otis in the Xen maps, he can clearly manage just fine on the space station map, which is entirely enclosed. The Xen map I've completed does have a couple of "buildings", but a fair amount of the map is outdoors. (The buildings are really built using Xen architecture.) The other Xen maps I plan to do are mostly outdoors or in caves.

The more I think about it, the more I feel we should do a separate set of maps for the Otis Shift experience, set in Black Mesa.

Re: Update on New Maps (2018-06-20)

by Ed the Bat » Wed Jun 20, 2018 14:44

If you want to put Otis in Xen, we could come up with some kind of cop-out excuse, like equipping him with a small rebreather apparatus or something. This is sci-fi; the sky's the limit.

Or perhaps we can split the difference and put a building in Xen? It would fit with the canon established in Half-Life, where Black Mesa had built outpost facilities on Xen... if I'm remembering it right. That could have just been in user-made campaigns I played, but still, I think it's a valid writing device, if we wanna use it.

Re: Update on New Maps (2018-05-13)

by Rex Claussen » Wed Jun 20, 2018 14:40

June 20: 2018: I have completed mapping on one Xen map, and have made reasonable progress on a space station map that will occupy Map slot 29, and will serve as a hub. The execution of his map has proven to be a major pain in the butt-hocks for two reasons: First, it is a circular space station (more like a torus/donut) with a central "spindle" connected to the outer ring; working with circular structures is always a challenge, because of the odd angles and linedef lengths/texturing. Second, the outer ring is virtually completely 3D, with sloped ceilings and floors, and having 2 levels. Oh, joy! Imagine the fun I'm having inserting new sectors to be sandwiched between sloped 3D ceilings and sloped 3D floors, all with odd angles (making texture choices challenging).

On a separate note, I considered making the Xen hub the one for the Otis Shift maps. The problem, however, is one of "logic" (if there is such a thing in sci-fi computer games). Rolf Bellmer or Gordon Freeman can jump around in Xen space with abandon, as they have their HEV suits (which, presumably, include self-contained breathing apparatus). Otis, on the other hand, doesn't. In other words, he would choke on the different Xen atmosphere, and his adventures would be brief, indeed. Ah, well; back to the drawing board.

Re: Update on New Maps (2018-05-13)

by Ed the Bat » Mon May 14, 2018 15:10

Sounds perfect!

The charging stations was one of them, so you're already aware of that, which is good. Similarly, things like the blocking that would have been attached to construction machines and the crates they hold... the blocking is now handled by the actors themselves; don't need to be manually added in the maps anymore.

Also, certain actor numbers may no longer match, as I've shuffled around a few of them, particularly scientists, marines, or any other actors that have multiple 'skins' -- I aim to have all cosmetic variants randomized for the sake of a little flavor (and simplicity of mapping/scripting)

There might be some other things here and there... oh yes, I removed all pickups for incoming messages; those are given to the player 'magically' by triggering scripts.

Again, however, you don't need to worry too much; I'm happy to handle the retrofiting once you've done the actual mapping (which is something I absolutely could not do without you!).

Re: Update on New Maps (2018-05-13)

by Rex Claussen » Mon May 14, 2018 14:50

Ed the Bat wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 14:24
So, if you find it awkward or too tedious to adjust your mapping to accommodate core changes, you may feel free to make your maps under the parameters of the old release of Paranoid/Paranoiac, and I could tweak/update them as needed.
Yes, that is how I've been proceeding. The biggest change I've noticed is the use of models for the HEV charger & medical station. I've continued to use sector-based constructs & scripts for these, and plan to complete all mapping using these (as I've almost completed all mapping on the non-Xen maps).

My plan is to release this set of maps to be fully compatible with Paranoid/Paranoiac, and you can then retrofit the maps to be compatible with Paranoix.

I'm not sure how to handle the Blue Shift mapping, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

As a matter of curiosity, what other core changes have you made? This will be relevant when I start work on Blue Shift maps.

Re: Update on New Maps (2018-05-13)

by Ed the Bat » Mon May 14, 2018 14:24

On the topic of making new maps, I'd been meaning to mention:

I know I have done a TON of restructuring on the game, to the point that the way maps are made could be impacted. I know you have access to the full changelog thanks to GitHub, but that can be a lot to take in. So, if you find it awkward or too tedious to adjust your mapping to accommodate core changes, you may feel free to make your maps under the parameters of the old release of Paranoid/Paranoiac, and I could tweak/update them as needed.

When I was making core changes to how the game works, I didn't put enough focus on how that would impact map-making, and I apologize for that.

Re: Update on New Maps (2018-05-13)

by Rex Claussen » Mon May 14, 2018 2:53

May 13, 2018: I've been working quietly behind the scenes to modify maps from Paranoia AND create new maps. Most notably, I've completed virtually all mapping on a new Xen map that will go into the Map 30 slot. I'll be posting screen pics and a project status soon.

I have been giving some thought to the Otis Shift part of the game, but have not really figured out how it ought to be implemented. Perhaps inspiration will strike soon.

Update on New Maps (2018-09-29)

by Rex Claussen » Fri Feb 02, 2018 15:25

February 02, 2018: After a months-long hiatus (because of work on By the Pricking of My Thumbs), I have resumed work on the maps for Paranoix, and have made some progress on Map 27. I hope to maintain my momentum, and will post updates from time to time.

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