Need Help With New Resources

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Topic review

Expand view Topic review: Need Help With New Resources

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Enjay » Wed Oct 10, 2018 18:05

Understood about the Wiki. I wasn't really trying to counter your points; I was merely voicing my appreciation for it and the effort put in to get it as good as it is. As editing documents and even general software documentation goes, I'd say it stacks up pretty well against others.

As for attenuated lights, the difference between attenuated lights and the earlier types is usually really quite subtle, even on my GTX1080. Generally, attenuated lights look more "realistic" in the way that they interact with scenery and models but it tends not to be an "oh my, that looks so much better" situation and more of just a feeling that the map looks good/better somehow. I have occasionally found situations where I preferred the effect of placing traditional point lights over the attenuated versions though.

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Rex Claussen » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:32

Agreed, that the ZDooM wiki is an excellent, and widely-encompassing resource.

I wasn't complaining about the use (or misuse) of language, as I understand the breadth of ZDooM users. I was really referring to the skimpiness (or occasional lack) of explanation in some instances. And, yes, the absence of examples results in further research being required.

I went back into the light attenuation article and, to be fair, it is quite clear. I first read the article on my cell phone while on a plane, and I probably didn't read it carefully enough. I must have been in a mood to vent when I complained about the wiki. [Is it too late for a retraction? Heh.]

But staying on topic: I added attenuation, but didn't really see much difference. Is a dedicated graphics card required (such as for brightmaps)? I am using hardware acceleration, but the graphics chip is integrated into the computer's system board. [At some point, I'll check out the lamps on my older computer with a dedicated video card.]

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Enjay » Tue Oct 09, 2018 19:41

Some articles certainly can be a bit brief/confusing/unclear/incomplete/inaccurate but I feel that the vast majority are good enough to provide the help needed when I'm looking things up (and some are very good).

It's worth remembering that the articles are created by a pretty varied group of people with varying skills in English (regardless of whether they are native speakers or not) and varying experience with writing documentation. When it comes down to it, a lot of work has been put in and it's actually a pretty vast and approaching fully comprehensive document for the game's features. It's certainly a lot better than no documentation and it takes the pressure off the developers to write documentation.

The option always exists for anyone to edit and improve articles if they see a need and have the necessary skills and time to do so (or, if not, report problems on the Wiki thread over at ZDoom and ask for/suggest improvements). I haven't done much editing of it because, most of the time, the articles I look at are OK for what I need and I find the Wiki editing format a bit clumsy too, but I have made a few minor tweaks over the years. I guess the biggest common "complaint" that I have is lack of examples in some of the articles but I rarely add any because the reason I'm looking is that I need examples and don't have one of my own. ;)

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Rex Claussen » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:02

Ah, okay. I understand now. Thanks.

(On a side note, I must say that the wiki is sometimes not very reader-friendly. As if the articles have been written by a computer programmer, rather than a ZDooM user.)

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Enjay » Mon Oct 08, 2018 22:43


Code: Select all

// Gothic Lamp
pointlight XENLAMP01
    color 1.0 0.15 0.15
    size 96
    // front, high, side
    offset 16 64 0
    attenuate 1
As I mentioned before, you might want to increase the size slightly as attenuated lights tend to not look quite so bright. However, I just tried the above and it looked reasonable without any further tweaking.

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Rex Claussen » Mon Oct 08, 2018 15:00

Thanks for the explanation. No need to made any modifications, as what the game needs can easily be adjusted by editing the actot’s properties in the editor or via the MODELDEF.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I read the ZDooM wiki on light attenuation but can’t figure out how to incorporate that feature into a pointlight definition for our lamps. It seems like the wiki is talking about how to define something new. Am I missing something?

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Enjay » Sun Oct 07, 2018 16:27

Glad it's what you wanted. :D

On the lamp position thing, the origin of the Gene-Tech model is right in the middle whereas the other lamp has the origin underneath it.



Neither is particularly wrong nor right, merely the way they are. Having the origin below the actor (like the Xen lamps) probably makes more sense in Doom given that Doom item heights start at the bottom but in an actor like this, it really doesn't matter.

I can alter it if needs be but, as you said, all you need to do is set the Z coordinate appropriately in WADAuthor (I assume that's still your editor of choice). If you really wanted it shifted up, another (perhaps easier) option would be to use ZOffset in your MODELDEF. (You could try something like "ZOffset 24" for starters and adjust to suit (I'm not sure of the exact size of the model)). ZOffset can be used to shift the model's appearance up/down in game without actually having to edit the model file itself.

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Rex Claussen » Sun Oct 07, 2018 13:44

Ha, ha, yes! Those are perfect. The blue is precisely what I had been going for. (Although, I might make the red lamp a bit redder.)

Also, I did get the spacelamp to spawn. I must have mixed and matched POSS & MOD1, because I could have sworn that I started out with POSS, and then changed to MOD1. The only thing is, that when summoned, the actor spawns at ground level, while the other lamps spawn at the player's mid-height. The relevant properties are identical:
Perhaps the property is built into the model. No matter; when I place it into the map editor I'll assign it the proper height. I brought this up as a curiosity.

It all looks splendid now. Thanks.

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Enjay » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:54

[edit] This post has taken things on to a new page. Just in case you miss it, I answered the MOD1 question on the previous page. [/edit]

OKay, lamp colours issue was much as expected : skin and brightmap being coloured red.

The following file uses your DECORATE and DOOMDEFS (albeit cut down so only the goth lamps are present). I didn't tweak the light colours at all but now that things are working, perhaps the blue could be a tiny, tiny bit more cyan-like (increase the green value slightly - curently 0 ) to make it appear a bit brighter (or maybe it's fine as-is) and perhaps use attenuation as already discussed.

I have included new skins. The blue and white lamps now have their own skins and because there is now a red and blue option, I made the red one slightly redder too.

The brightmap has been greyscaled so that it suits all of the skins.

I also included "off" versions of all skins. You may want to use them or you may decide that the off versions look better using the grey skin (although the veiny part over the globe still has a reddish hint to it). My only concern is that switching a lamp between one of the coloured versions and a grey "off" state might look a bit stark. With a bit of additional work, it would be possible to create coloured "on" versions that are grey where the light logically wouldn't hit them.

As ever, let me know if you need any changes.

As I said, the following file contains the modified Goth lamps but all other entries have been trimmed out (the map has been updated to have the modified lamps too).

As before, all skins are compatible with all models so just mix and match as you see fit in modeldefs. ... loured.pk3

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Enjay » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:45

Ahhh! Yes, change any instance of MOD1 in the DECORATE MODELDEF and DOOMDEFS/GLDEFS to POSS. I used MOD1 (plus many others) as a dummy sprite name defined in the textures lump because I needed literally hundreds of sprites for the models in Gene-Tech so simply repurposing the default doom ones wasn't the best route.

I'll look at your file later today.

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Rex Claussen » Fri Oct 05, 2018 17:10

I copied the tech lamp from GeneTech & set things up. However, the lamp doesn’t show up in-game. I know that the actor is there (because of the blocking I set up), but no lamp itself.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the way the model frames are set up. Other models use POSS A or B, but the tech lamp uses MOD1. I looked through your pk3 to see if I need to create a new definition for a “dummy” actor from which the tech lamp inherits properties, but I saw nothing. Any ideas?

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Rex Claussen » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:19

Rex Claussen wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 23:01
... I'll post what I've done and you can see how it needs to be tweaked.
Updated Gothic & Wall Lamps
(653.71 KiB) Downloaded 13 times

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Enjay » Fri Oct 05, 2018 0:09

Without seeing what you've done: the model skin obviously has a reddish colour to it. I assume you've recoloured that?

The brightmap is also coloured reddish and this might be sapping some colour from the blue effect. You could either greyscale the brightmap to allow it to be used on a skin of any colour or replicate it and colour it appropriately for your other skins (a coloured brightmap does colour the texture it is applied to slightly).

I have noticed, however, that some colours are easier to make appear bright than others. Blue sometimes gives me problems. If it's strongly blue, it looks too dark, if it's bright, the blue can get washed out quite easily. I've found that making a blue colour a bit more cyan-ish rather than pure blue can sometimes help.

On the attenuated lights, I'd just use a combination. If attenuated ones work well in a certain situation, use them. If the standard ones look better somewhere else, use them instead.

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Rex Claussen » Thu Oct 04, 2018 23:01

OK, thanks. When I get a chance I'll look at what you just sent.

I had already updated your models with the method I described above, with the intention of making the lamps switchable via the dormant flag. I'll look at how you've done it and see if I need to adopt your method. I had also made all the lamps solid, and given the nogravity flag to the wall lamps (which you had also done).

I will use attenuated lamps (which I hadn't thought about until you mentioned it). The one thing I'm somewhat concerned about with light attenuation is that the brightness will diminish with distance. In the maps I'm creating, I'd like the lights to appear bright even at a distance, as at least two maps have structures at considerable distances that are visible.

Now, a question: I had decided that I would use the red, blue, and white light color scheme for the gothic lamps too (one color for each of the 3 models). I used pointlights via a doomdefs lump. The lamplight part of the model gets nicely colored with the red and white lights, but the lamplight portion of the blue lamp doesn't get (or barely gets) colored. I tried modifying the height of the pointlight, which reduced the blue coloring even further.

I will look at what you've done, which may answer my questions. Otherwise I'll post what I've done and you can see how it needs to be tweaked. [I have a shitty internet connection at present, so I'll need to post the file later this evening.]

Re: Need Help With New Resources

by Enjay » Thu Oct 04, 2018 19:16

I was taking a look at the skins on the Goth lamp anyway when i noticed your post. So, please find below a test PK3 with the following changes:

Goth lamp models have been tweaked to make the skin mapping look a bit better. It's still not as good as I'd like but I don't have time to make a new skin and model right now (even though it's not a particularly complicated part of the model to remake). At least the horrible mis-match of the horizontal line that was visible right at the front of the lower part of the lamp post has been minimised. All of the Goth lamp models (GLamps 1 2 and 3) have been updated as have the on and off skins. However, they are just direct replacements for what I sent before so you can just drop them in with minimal fuss.

I also set up the lamps to be switchable decorations. So, if you want a lamp that is on, just place it in a map. If you want a lamp that is off, place it in a map and set its flag so that it is dormant. If you want to change the on/off status, use Thing_Activate/Thing_Deactivate (not sure why I'm telling you this; I'm sure you know all of the above). I've also made them solid and given them dimensions that seem about right. I didn't bother giving them dynamic lights because you already have that covered by the sound of it.

Anyway, try the following PK3. (It only contains the Goth lamps, not the wall lamps because I didn't change their models). The decorate and modeldef should be reasonably easy to follow ad apply to the wall lamps. The only big difference is that you'll probably want to make the wall lamps non-solid, smaller and have the +NOGRAVITY flag in their DECORATE. ... chable.pk3

[edit] Oh, while I'm thinking about lights, if you aren't using attenuated lights already, it's a good idea to use them. They cast a much more realistic light and interact with models and scenery much better than the standard lights. The only thing to be aware of is that they tend to need to have their radius and brightness set a bit bigger/brighter than the standard lights. GLDefs definitions are easy to update (just add attenuate 1 to the code for each defined light and adjust the brightness/radius as required). Map-placed lights are a bit fussier because you'd have to replace them with the attenuated lights, which have a different editnum and then adjust any parameters. Probably not worth it unless you were reworking a whole area anyway.

I think these are the ednums:

9830 Point Light Attenuated
9831 Pulse Light Attenuated
9832 Flicker Light Attenuated
9833 Sector Point Light Attenuated
9834 Random Flicker Light Attenuated

And here's an example gldefs light definition

Code: Select all

flickerlight EXAMPLELIGHT
    color 1.0 0.7 0.0
    size 96
    secondarySize 108
    chance 0.3
    attenuate 1