GZDoom put on hold

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 17:34

I'm sorry to make this announcement.

Due to recent changes in ZDoom that completely break parts of the hardware renderer I will not be able to do any serious development on GZDoom for the foreseeable future.

I haven't even been able to find and fix all the issues from Randy's latest changes and here he goes ahead and changes another important part of the renderer interface. I'm afraid that I can't work like that and won't do any further work until an official ZDoom release is being made because right now I end up changing the code more often than I like and this creates countless errors and I spend far too much time achieving nothing.

Once an official ZDoom release is available I will upgrade to that - but not sooner.

Karate Chris · Post by **Karate Chris** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 17:38

I was afraid of this happening. We've gone so long without an official release, it's becoming ridiculous after one and a third years now. Anway, I hope he finishes his work soon and moves on to something else.

Post by **Rex Claussen** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 18:07

Having said that, is v1.0.30 the most stable GZDooM version (with the exception of the minor issue raised by Nash: gl_billboard_mode doesn't have a menu option)? I ask because I have been working with that version for one of my projects, and am reluctant to switch to one of the later versions until you give the green light on v1.0.32. [However, I suspect that the features I am using/intend to use on my project are not advanced enough to be messed up by the problems being currently encountered by GZDooM testers, so it may not be an issue for me.]

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 18:19

1.0.32 should be stable.

If you are interested what made this happen, it was the redesign of the blending mode code. Unfortunately I have to change large parts of the rendering code to make it work. What's worse is that the system doesn't look well planned and I expect changes in the coming days.

To be honest, I'm in a really bad mood. It is indeed ridiculous that Randy can't get to the point and adds one gimmick after another without thinking about the consequences. Since the beginning of December 90% of his work (and as a consequence 50% of mine went into relatively superficial eye candy and now I can invest even more work in a feature with very, *VERY* limited use. I think you can imagine how I feel about it, right?

Post by **Enjay** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 18:21

Oh this is bad news.

Very bad news.

I totally understand your position Graf, but that doesn't mean it isn't still a huge disappointment as a modder.

Personally, I've regarded GZdoom as the official Zdoom for the best part of a year now anyway. But I know that, ultimately, GZdoom is a derivative work that aims to stay with the current Zdoom (if there is such a thing). The SVN versions of Zdoom are, IMO, merely an interesting distraction but I can't say I enjoy playing them much and when I have, sooner or later I want to look further up or down than the restricted angles, or want to achieve something needing 3D floors, or add a dynamic light to something and, of course, it just doesn't look as pretty IMO either. So I don't do any of my modding for them. I suppose I see the SVN versions of Zdoom merely as technically limited teasers for what will appear in GZdoom. I know that it isn't your plan, and I don't suppose it would be good for the community or either port in the long run but with your DoomScript waiting in the wings and the current instability of Zdoom's status, I do sometimes find myself wishing the two ports would just diverge and do their own thing. I really don't suppose that's a workable situation though.

A lot of things all over the Doom, and particularly Zdoom, community are stalling and on hold because of a lack of a clear status on Zdoom and I don't see that changing any time soon. Personally, I feel hemmed in and frustrated by the whole situation and it's getting to a stage where I feel like saying "what's the fucking point" whenever I think of something new to do because I know that, sooner or later, I'll come across something whose future is uncertain because of a lack of movement or clear direction in the port as a whole and I don't know if I'm doing it the right way, or whether it is something that I would have been able to do if stuff hadn't been put on hold or if it is something that is definitely planned or if it is something that is going to change or if it is something that will never be possible. I know I'm not the only one who feels like this and I guess your announcement means you feel similarly too, but from a coding standpoint.

A pretty shitty situation all round

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 18:23

Karate Chris wrote:I was afraid of this happening. We've gone so long without an official release, it's becoming ridiculous after one and a third years now. Anway, I hope he finishes his work soon and moves on to something else.

Before that happens you have to make it very clear to people like Eriance that they have to stop making request after request after request without thinking. I shot down what I could but I forgot this one. If I had had even an inkling of what Randy would do, I would have DELETED the thread.

I think in the future I'll kill any request that only will serve to stall ZDoom even further. This can't go on.

Post by **Enjay** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 18:30

Graf Zahl wrote:To be honest, I'm in a really bad mood. It is indeed ridiculous that Randy can't get to the point and adds one gimmick after another without thinking about the consequences. Since the beginning of December 90% of his work (and as a consequence 50% of mine went into relatively superficial eye candy and now I can invest even more work in a feature with very, *VERY* limited use. I think you can imagine how I feel about it, right?

This is the kind of thing that has happened (or didn't happen) in the past, eg with 2.0.64. Everyone was waiting for a line to be drawn in the sand that says "this is official, this is the standard, now use it as a base for your own work" but instead we got a constantly shifting sand where nothing can be relied on and where anything built on it could collapse at any point. It's frustrating.

I guess the bottom line is that it's Randy's port and if he wants to add all sorts of little gimmicky features and go off at tangents that interest him (the whole recent change in the rendering code thing was, if I read it right, fall out from a request about colours in the status bar) he can - and clearly does - but it really leaves everyone else hanging and not knowing where they are or how long they are going to be there. I'm loathed to say it about someone who has spent a great deal of time, effort and money to provide and support Zdoom, but it is inconsiderate.

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 18:43

What makes me so angry is that the RenderStyle stuff he implemented is close to useless. It's only usable if there is no fog and no colored light in a map. Otherwise it will look like shit, especially in a software renderer. I wouldn't have minded if this had just been one or 2 new render styles. But he completely redid the system I was relying upon and now nothing is working anymore. Half the GL code doesn't compile and I have to fix all at once before even being able to compile again - and despite wasting an entire afternoon I haven't gotten beyond the superficialities of sprite lighting. Grrr... And the way the information is presented right now makes many of the small tweaks I had inoperable so the code gets messier and messier.

The irony is that this feature was requested by Eriance, presumably for his DE mod (which is GZDoom.) And now instead of getting a new feature he gets screwed!

Karate Chris · Post by **Karate Chris** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 19:41

At least you know how to code OpenGL things. I haven't ever done anything to do with rendering. Maybe if Randy integrated GZDoom into ZDoom then things will be easier. Though knowing Randy, he would probably like to make his own implementation.

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 20:38

The thing is, he went for the generalized approach, allowing everything. However, if you think about it, that's mostly useless and creates possible setups that just look like shit. But because it's all generalized I cannot efficiently filter out the interesting cases that need special processing.

Well, at least I was able to get it to compile again. It's far from stable and crashes a lot and the 'enhanced' render styles don't work. And I won't even bother making them operable unless something needs them (which I seriously doubt will be any time soon.) This shit cost me an afternoon just to be able to compile GZDoom with the latest ZDoom changes again.

So the irony of the whole matter is, Eriance made a feature request for his GZDoom mod at the ZDoom forum and doesn't get what he wants - I have an SVN repository but it won't contain much useful things for quite some time - and the Skulltag team is stuck as well.

Really well done, Randy.

Karate Chris · Post by **Karate Chris** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 21:05

Perhaps you could explain the situation to Randy and then he may reconsider. I doubt he'll want to upset many people just so he can add a few features. It can't hurt to ask.

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 21:25

Now it's too late. I think I got the original functionality working again but I hava absolutely no, NO desire to think about this render style stuff more than is absoÃ¶lutely necessary. There's a very good reason why I did not implement subtractive rendering in GZDoom. It may look handy at the surface but the engine is already stuffed with endless special cases for this and that (e.g. invulnerability colormaps) and anything added here has to work in all situations. That makes the code unmaintainable.

So for the time being I can leave GZDoom aside and concentrate on ZDoom stuff again. However if the next rendering breaking feature comes along I will have to make an eventually crucial decision how to go on. I don't know what that may be. Either wait or leave ZDoom behind for good.

And to make one thing abundantly clear: I won't touch the GL code anymore unless I can upgrade to an official ZDoom release. I will also not do any more releases based on SVN Zdoom until that point.

(I'm sorry if anyone is annoyed by my endless rants today. This has been a very frustrating day for me wasted on something that wasn't worth it. And it was raining the entire day so I couldn't even go outside to relax.)

Post by **Enjay** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 22:27

Graf Zahl wrote:I'm sorry if anyone is annoyed by my endless rants today. This has been a very frustrating day for me wasted on something that wasn't worth it. And it was raining the entire day so I couldn't even go outside to relax.)

Annoyed? No. Concerned (primarily in a selfish way

)? Yes. Sympathetic? Certainly.

Personally, I find that sometimes going out in the rain is actually very therapeutic. Mind you, with the climate in Scotland, there often isn't much choice.

Post by **Rex Claussen** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:32

Enjay wrote:Personally, I find that sometimes going out in the rain is actually very therapeutic. Mind you, with the climate in Scotland, there often isn't much choice.

I used to love walking in the rain as a kid, but after I became responsible for my own laundry I've been somewhat loth to get my clothes soaking wet. But avoiding rain in Florida is like trying to avoid getting sand up your nose in Khartoum.

But staying on track, Graf I'm glad you clarified that v1.0.32 is fine. Not that there were likely to be any major issues with my project, as it's hardly "bleeding edge", and it probably is lagging behind the features curve by a year. Still, it's good to know that the version one is using is a fully workable one.

Enjay, I feel your pain. In contrast to what I typically do, your stuff always tries to test the system to the max. Good luck with it all.

YouTube · Post by **Nash** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:17

Take it easy, Graf Zahl... GZDoom is an awesome port and you've already done so much to get it where it is now... please don't give up! There's no rush...