3D Modelling Discussion

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Expand view Topic review: 3D Modelling Discussion

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Rex Claussen » Wed Nov 01, 2017 21:57

At one point, a few years ago, I was also concerned with file size. Not so much, any more. For example, in both Paranoid and Paranoiac the file sizes for voice-acting and music are considerable. But I wouldn't, for a second, consider stripping them from the games in order to trim the file sizes. Therefore, as Nigel says, as long as we are not creating "bloat" we ought to be less concerned with this issue.

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Ed the Bat » Wed Nov 01, 2017 21:35

Fair point. I will say that I don't regret the filesize so much that I want to actually remove the things I've brought in. After all, everything I bring is, in my opinion, a quality boost, like higher-resolution textures and models with increased polygon count. On the other hand, I feel that my 'HD Addon Pack' idea would make for a setup that can satisfy both high-end and low-end users with little effort on my part. If it ever becomes a major point of contention, I can revisit the idea.

I will NOT, however, be restoring the sprite rips from before. Mainly because they don't offer enough frames to match my new incarnations of the actor definitions cleanly, and the filesize on the sprites kinda adds up quickly for something I consider... much less pleasant to look at.

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Enjay » Wed Nov 01, 2017 21:29

My attitude to modding and releasing games has always been a little self-centred I guess. So, on the file size, I'd say if 300mb is what it takes to make the project that we want, then 300mb it is. Just as long as we're not shoving in extraneous stuff that bloats the size unnecessarily then the size is what it is and what it needs to be.

I hear what you are saying about user base but I have struggled with an under-par internet connection most of my online life and even I wouldn't really balk (too much) at a 300mb download for a mod that I wanted to try these days. Again, I come back to the main point; in my opinion we should make the project that we want. If that means that some users can't or won't run/download it, then that just means it wasn't the project for them. Perhaps, sooner or later they will be able to play it, if they want to. (I also bet loads of them stream many mb of videos and Windows updates every month without even thinking about it.)

It is true that our community has a lot of people with behind-the-curve hardware but there are also loads of people with hardware good enough to play Doom 2016 and newer games too. Why not cater for that second group (whilst not deliberately excluding others, of course)? I also suspect that we tend to over-represent people with poor hardware. Most of the surveys within the community that I have seen do not seem to indicate that things are as dire as we often assume. Perhaps people with poor hardware make more noise than others because they will find mods that they can't run more often than people with good hardware so they have more to complain about? Any sizeable/resource intensive project will exclude some users. (Indeed, any software of any type will be unrunnable (new word?) on some hardware.) Blade of Agony simply won't run any faster than a slide show for some people yet it's still a great, award-winning, project that comes very close to the team's vision for it.

[edit] We, as a community, still also suffer from the "you mean I need a [insert high level computer spec here] to play Doom?" mindset. [/edit]

In our case, people still have access to the original mods and literally 1000s or other mods to play if they can't run the new incarnation of our game. We will exclude some users by making a big, resource intensive release, and we may take some flak, but I say build the mod that we want, to the quality that we want and just accept that some people won't be happy. Let's be honest, there will always be some people who aren't happy. I suggest that we offer them a full refund. ;)

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Ed the Bat » Wed Nov 01, 2017 19:43

Makes sense to me. Perhaps someday soon, I can start a list (and include it in the project so it'll be visible on GitHub) of the items I can trace back to a source, and then you gentlemen will be free to fill in any blanks that you can, if you wish.

Oh, and one more thing about models that I've been meaning to bring up: As you may have noticed, the project has gotten HUGE with all the models I've been bringing in. The pk3 now exceeds 300MB. I do what I can whenever I find a way to trim a bit out here and there, but unless GZDoom gets Half-Life MDL support (not bloody likely, right...?), it's gonna stay huge. I was wondering if anyone felt that this would be an issue, particularly for the playerbase. I could bring in some lower-quality models (like the vanilla Half-Life models, ugly as they are...) and move the high-quality ones into an optional add-on file. Do you folks have any thoughts?

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Enjay » Wed Nov 01, 2017 19:36

I did make a few from scratch though when the game was first being done I was still very much learning about models. So I found tinkering with existing models much easier than making new ones. I still don't really consider myself a modeller but I can make some (simple) stuff from scratch that I am reasonably happy with.

Exactly which ones from our game are ones that I made, I couldn't honestly say. Some desks may have been done, simple crates, boxes, maybe screens etc. Things like computer consoles and other stuff were sort of done from scratch in as much as there was something fundamentally wrong with the original model that we wanted to use so I essentially made a new one by tracing over the old one.

Almost all the models that came through my fingers would have had some tweaking, modifying or other editing of some sort but exactly where the line for "heavy edits" is drawn, I'm not sure. I guess a rule of thumb might be if I gave an overly verbose description to Rex via email/forum post about some modding that I'd done, then it was something that had been a pain to do and I'd felt like ranting but other things would have gone through silently and so, perhaps, might be considered minor edits. ;)

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Ed the Bat » Wed Nov 01, 2017 19:08

Yes, I am aware of the four main sources. I can definitely identify any model from Half-Life (including its community offspring, like the Ultra-Definition models), and I have collected everything I could find in Mr. Sitter's site. Enjay sent me many BlackRayne models (though I can't confirm if this is all of them ever made), and I have already identified some models from other sources, such as the Duke Nukem Hi-Res Pack, and Star Wars Jedi Knight (thanks to Enjay pointing me in the right direction).

I feel that, someday, it might be useful to have a complete roster of the sources for all assets (especially ones I've brought in; I need to make sure I check back on my sources), for a number of reasons:
*Tracking them down again in the future in case of a need for updates, adjustments, etc.
*Giving credit where it's due
*telling players where to look if they want to find them

We'll also know what specific sets of assets would need to be removed or adjusted in the event of any legal troubles. =P

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Rex Claussen » Wed Nov 01, 2017 18:59

Ed the Bat wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 16:13
Ultimately I'd like to be able to identify the original source for every model, but I know that would be quite extensive...
I have a reference for every model that I introduced to the game. However:

1. I don't remember every single one that I introduced (vs. those introduced by other members of the Team).
2. I don't remember which ones Nigel modified.

[As an exercise, I could review my emails and the relevant forums for Paranoid and Paranoiac to identify which ones were modified by Nigel.]

There are really 4 main sources:

1. Half-Life itself
2. BlackRayne
3. Willem Sitter's website
4. Nigel

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Ed the Bat » Wed Nov 01, 2017 16:13

Coming back with another question/request (requestion?)...
Enjay, did you do any of the models from scratch (or with very heavy edits to an existing base)? And if so, can you list them off for me, or link me to a source?

Ultimately I'd like to be able to identify the original source for every model, but I know that would be quite extensive...

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Enjay » Wed Oct 25, 2017 0:57

OK, they're gone. Hope you find something interesting in there. :)

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Ed the Bat » Wed Oct 25, 2017 0:40

Thank you so much for this, Enjay! I'll be sure to have fun looking through these, at the very least for the curiosity. Feel free to take them back down. If they should be needed again, I'll happily put them up on my site, to spare you the weight.

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Enjay » Wed Oct 25, 2017 0:32

I downloaded a lot of the BlackRayne models. I didn't take them all because there were a few where I thought I'd never use them but I *think* I have most of them.

I've put what I have here. Please let me know when you have them so that I can free up the space on my website.

http://www.aspectsweb.co.uk/enjay/doom/ ... kRayne.zip

It's something like 87MB.

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Ed the Bat » Mon Oct 23, 2017 16:13

Rex Claussen wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 16:00
The only real consideration, of course, is gender: Controller/Hintman speaks with a male voice, so having a female model won't work. [Conversely, Col. Stinson speaks with a female voice, so a male model won't work.
Indeed, I made sure to stay with a male model for Hintman. I just felt it would be good to ask if anyone had any suggestions or opinions, as I aim to avoid making anyone else unhappy whenever possible, and it's never too late to make adjustments.
Please explain what you mean by "archive" and "source material". Many of the BlackRayne's models were downloaded by me and inserted into Paranoid as-is. In other words, they were completely unedited, and what made it into the game was the source material.
I just wanted to see BlackRayne's work for myself, including any items they had which aren't used in Paranoid, or any that happened to have been a base for editing. I was just wondering if perhaps someone on the team had preserved them, as they no longer seem to be available online, and I've taken an interest in examining the original versions of the assets used in Paranoid.
I do have the zip files of all the BlackRayne models used in Paranoid, as well as unused models. I have 24 models in all, totaling about 12 or 13 MB. I can upload them for your use when I get a chance.
That would be fine, but don't feel rushed over it or anything.

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Rex Claussen » Mon Oct 23, 2017 16:00

Ed the Bat wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 15:36
I wanted to quickly ask if anyone had any thoughts about Hintman. This past week or so, I made some small tweaks to his outfit that, incidentally, look a bit closer to the original model's. At this point, if I were to remove his beret and the scar on his face, he'd look even more similar to the old Hintman. But before I do that, I figured I'd ask the group for any opinions or suggestions.
I'm on travel through this week, so I won't be able to download and check anything until Sunday, at the earliest. However, in general, I'd say that non-HL models (such as the Controller/Hintman) don't need to look exactly like those in Paranoid. In fact, there doesn't even need to be a passing resemblance. The only real consideration, of course, is gender: Controller/Hintman speaks with a male voice, so having a female model won't work. [Conversely, Col. Stinson speaks with a female voice, so a male model won't work.]
Oh, and separate question: Would anyone happen to know of, or have, an archive of BlackRayne Studios' models? From what I can see, the site is gone from the web, and I wanted to examine some of the source material, since I know Paranoid makes use of their work.
Please explain what you mean by "archive" and "source material". Many of the BlackRayne's models were downloaded by me and inserted into Paranoid as-is. In other words, they were completely unedited, and what made it into the game was the source material. I do know that Nigel provided some of the models in the game, but I'm not sure of their source. Also, I know that he edited some of the models (light-baking in at least one instance) I had acquired, but I don't recall which.

I do have the zip files of all the BlackRayne models used in Paranoid, as well as unused models. I have 24 models in all, totaling about 12 or 13 MB. I can upload them for your use when I get a chance.

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Ed the Bat » Sun Oct 22, 2017 15:36

I wanted to quickly ask if anyone had any thoughts about Hintman. This past week or so, I made some small tweaks to his outfit that, incidentally, look a bit closer to the original model's. At this point, if I were to remove his beret and the scar on his face, he'd look even more similar to the old Hintman. But before I do that, I figured I'd ask the group for any opinions or suggestions.

Oh, and separate question: Would anyone happen to know of, or have, an archive of BlackRayne Studios' models? From what I can see, the site is gone from the web, and I wanted to examine some of the source material, since I know Paranoid makes use of their work.

Re: 3D Modelling Discussion

by Ed the Bat » Tue Oct 03, 2017 22:53

That's the one. Thanks for the tip! It'll be useful if I ever decide to try to add some updates or adjustments to it.

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