MAPINFO Mystery

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Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Rachael » Sat Jan 14, 2017 16:13

Try putting two different copies of that file. It may be retreiving from Virtual Store just because the master copy no longer exists.

Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Gez » Sat Jan 14, 2017 16:07

Putting programs in program files is not a problem. Putting data in program files is. Herculine's problem wasn't caused by GZDoom or SLADE being in program files; it was caused by the wad being in there.
Eruanna wrote:Accusatory wording notwithstanding, Graf does have a point. (I'm sorry! I don't mean this in a bad way, though..) It might be worth investigating the manifest entry that stops the Virtual Store with Slade because as has been shown quite plainly in this thread, that can be a source of confusion for users, and you saw how it took some time to even come down and nail that issue because it's completely not obvious what happens here.
Doesn't seem to work.

Old manifest:
Spoiler:
New manifest:
Spoiler:
I've put a test.wad file in protected folder, accessed it and saved it with SLADE to create a copy in the virtual store, then quit SLADE and deleted it from the real folder. Updating the manifest to add the trustinfo thingamabob, restarting SLADE, attempting to open the file... success, the file is retrieved from the virtual store instead of failing to open. Either there's a subtlety I'm not grasping in this Microsoft mumbo-jumbo magic manifest malarkey, or it's not working as advertised and therefore useless.

Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Enjay » Sat Jan 14, 2017 15:00

I think the main problem here is the entirely reasonable assumption from many users that "program files" is where programs are meant to go. On the face of it, it makes sense, most programs a user installs with automatically go there and they will work properly. These days, it will be fairly alien for a user to install things into a directory that they create and name outwith Program Files.

Also, most users simply won't be aware of the special handling of what happens in Program Files. Unless you go searching for it, know what to search for and understand the ramifications of what you find, the inappropriateness of putting certain programs into Program Files, the virtual store and other associated issues are things the most users will be blissfully unaware of. Therefore, the onus unfortunately falls to the producer of the software (who should understand the issues) to make it as obvious as possible that "Program Files" is inappropriate for their program if they want users to use their program successfully.

Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Rachael » Sat Jan 14, 2017 14:35

Gez wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:And do not put Doom ports in there if you want to extract PWADs into the same folder. I'm not sure how it deals with other applications mucking around with it, but with Slade it seems it does make some unhealthy assumptions.
No assumption is made other than when the user wants to open a file, it should try to open the file. Everything is explained solely by virtual store behavior.
Accusatory wording notwithstanding, Graf does have a point. (I'm sorry! I don't mean this in a bad way, though..) It might be worth investigating the manifest entry that stops the Virtual Store with Slade because as has been shown quite plainly in this thread, that can be a source of confusion for users, and you saw how it took some time to even come down and nail that issue because it's completely not obvious what happens here.

In fact, you could even plainly see that I didn't even know it was a problem until I reviewed her startup logs and saw where she was loading her files from.

Just telling someone "don't put it in Program Files!!!" is really not enough.

Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Gez » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:14

Herculine wrote:The problem appears to be SLADE and apparently Virtualstore (the latter of which I'll admit is new to me).

I moved the entirety of my Doom directory to a folder outside of Program Files, then started SLADE and, while it should then have been unable to find any files, in its history it still showed the .wads I had edited and even opened them, despite the fact that they should no longer be there. Apparently it is keeping some sort of a cache history. How GZDoom (or ZDL?) got confused by it, I'm still not sure, but this definitely seems to be the root of the problem.
Textbook virtual store thing, and absolutely 0% SLADE's fault. You tell SLADE to open a file, it tries to open it, Windows redirects the access to the virtual store where that file still exists, so the file is opened successfully. SLADE works normally and as expected, and the confusion is entirely, completely, uniquely caused by your decision to put data in the Program Files directory.
Graf Zahl wrote:And do not put Doom ports in there if you want to extract PWADs into the same folder. I'm not sure how it deals with other applications mucking around with it, but with Slade it seems it does make some unhealthy assumptions.
No assumption is made other than when the user wants to open a file, it should try to open the file. Everything is explained solely by virtual store behavior.

Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Graf Zahl » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:16

Eruanna wrote:Another idea I just thought of - Try moving the entirety of those folders to your desktop instead of Program Files. It may be using VirtualStore (which may be the copy of the file you sent, as well) - causing all sorts of hairy mess if not handled properly. Virtualstore is what Windows uses on the Program Files folder if otherwise an access would be denied. In this case it should not be enabled - but it's possible that it might be. (Also, try starting GZDoom in both cases as an administrator to see if it changes anything)

FYI, between these two versions a manifest entry was added to disable the virtual store. This means that a newer GZDoom version will never be able to see any file that got copied in there.

It cannot be stressed enough: Program Files is a write protected directory. Do not store any stuff there which may get modified by external applications, and for some reason Slade does seem to do some weird stuff here.
And do not put Doom ports in there if you want to extract PWADs into the same folder. I'm not sure how it deals with other applications mucking around with it, but with Slade it seems it does make some unhealthy assumptions.

Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Rachael » Fri Jan 13, 2017 23:52

You're welcome. :)

Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Herculine » Fri Jan 13, 2017 23:37

Yep. That's where they were alright.

Thank you very much for that. It's the most useful thing I've learned about Windows in a long while.

Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Rachael » Fri Jan 13, 2017 23:24

No problem.

If you need to look at your virtualstore, press Win+R on your keyboard and paste the following command in:

Code: Select all

%localappdata%\virtualstore
Here you can see where all those "ghost" files come from and where they actually are put.

Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Herculine » Fri Jan 13, 2017 22:56

The problem appears to be SLADE and apparently Virtualstore (the latter of which I'll admit is new to me).

I moved the entirety of my Doom directory to a folder outside of Program Files, then started SLADE and, while it should then have been unable to find any files, in its history it still showed the .wads I had edited and even opened them, despite the fact that they should no longer be there. Apparently it is keeping some sort of a cache history. How GZDoom (or ZDL?) got confused by it, I'm still not sure, but this definitely seems to be the root of the problem.

I'll try reinstalling SLADE to a different folder as well. If the problem persists, at least now I have some sort of a handle on what is happening. For a while there I was beginning to think that I was either totally inept or my laptop was possessed by Imps. Now as it turns out, it seems to be Windows 10 gremlins instead.

Thanks again for your time, trouble and patience. GZDoom (and ZDoom, of course) are my favorite sourceports.

Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Rachael » Fri Jan 13, 2017 22:41

You're welcome. If it is indeed that issue, it's possible to clear the virtualstore folder - but personally I'd just keep it out of there just to be on the safe side.

Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Herculine » Fri Jan 13, 2017 22:22

I'll try that as well. That could explain why there seems to be a ghost of the previous .wad, if it's some sort of registry or memory problem, though I'm not sure I understand it.

Again thank you, and I'll let you know what I can unravel.

Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Rachael » Fri Jan 13, 2017 22:11

Another idea I just thought of - Try moving the entirety of those folders to your desktop instead of Program Files. It may be using VirtualStore (which may be the copy of the file you sent, as well) - causing all sorts of hairy mess if not handled properly. Virtualstore is what Windows uses on the Program Files folder if otherwise an access would be denied. In this case it should not be enabled - but it's possible that it might be. (Also, try starting GZDoom in both cases as an administrator to see if it changes anything)

Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Rachael » Fri Jan 13, 2017 22:01

Alright. There is indeed a discrepancy, and it might be within the GZDoom code. Of course, both versions should load it properly no matter what but this is clearly not the case.

Code: Select all

<  adding C:/Program Files (x86)/DOOM/_WADS/DOOM2/_BLIND ALLEY.wad, 213 lumps
---
>  adding C:/Program Files (x86)/DOOM/_WADS/DOOM2/_BLIND ALLEY.wad, 314 lumps
(the < is pointing to your 2.1.1 log, the > is pointing to your 2.3.2 log)

One of these versions is loading it correct, but I am not sure which one. It's almost like one of them is loading erroneous data. And that seems to be the case with SLADE, too. I am not sure what application is bugged - the old version of GZDoom, the new one, or Slade itself. But I know it should not be doing this.

Even weirder still - I loaded this into a hex editor and there is only one copy of MAPINFO that I could see.

Re: MAPINFO Mystery

by Rachael » Fri Jan 13, 2017 21:54

No worries, looking at it now, had to take a nap for a bit.

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