GZDB2 and non-GZDoom mapping.

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Expand view Topic review: GZDB2 and non-GZDoom mapping.

Re: GZDB2 and non-GZDoom mapping.

by Gez » Sun Jul 17, 2016 0:12

pming wrote:I was talking with some folks over on the Doomsday Engine forum about the lack of DE information with regards to mapping for it...and that even the SLADE3 devs don't really know how/what DE handles so that they could develop, say, "compatibility" with DE (map-building wise).
If you have a list of things that need to be added to the editor config, go ahead. In fact, I'm going to let you in on a secret (not actually a secret): you can create a SLADECFG lump in a wad file that will be read in addition to the selected game/engine configuration. If you define new actors in DEDs, define them as new things in SLADECFG. If you define new line types in XG, define them as new specials in SLADECFG. And so on.
pming wrote:That, as far as I know, there isn't anything really "Hard-Coded" into GZDB2 that is GZDoom specific and will automatically be assumed no matter what config you choose (like, say "Hexen in Hexen format"). Am I wrong in this assumption?
There are some GZDoom-specific stuff that is hardcoded in GZDB, but this only concerns GZDoom-specific features. For example, 3D floors are only fully supported in the editor (with accurate preview in 3D mode, etc.) for when you have a Hexen-format or UDMF map using line type 160. GZDB will not render 3D floors made through other ways (e.g. Legacy, 3DGE, or Risen3D methods in Doom format maps).

The fact that some GZDoom features are hardcoded, however, doesn't mean it can only be used for GZDoom. It just means that some GZDB niceties are only available when mapping for GZDoom; but keep in mind that all mapping features added to a source port were added with the assumption that editors wouldn't provide special support for them anyway. Basically the worst case to expect is that you won't get an accurate preview in 3D mode so you'll have to test the level in game to check how your use of such or such feature works in game.
pming wrote:Q1: Is GZDB2 "specific to GZDOOM" that non-GZDOOM mapping is not going to work?
No.
pming wrote:Q2: Are there any plans to write (or figure out how to) a full-on "DE" config? Or separate ones (Hexen, Heretic, DOOM, DOOM2, etc)
No, at least not on MaxED's part.
pming wrote:Q3: Should I just give up on learning/mapping for DE until, say, the early 2020's, when there might be more 'artsy-fartsy-mappers' love? (ok, that last part sounded...weird...)
No. It's a chicken-and-egg problem I suppose: if mappers aren't actively mapping for Doomsday, the Doomsday devs won't have any mapper feedback to take into account.
pming wrote:I'd LOVE to map for DE (Hexen and Heretic in particular), using GZDB2, with full DED access in-editor. It'd be even sweeter if it could 'read', say, "materials.ded" and then interpret that into a 'gl equivalent' for showing in the editor (like GLDEFS show up for GZDB2 DOOM2), and even better if we could also get approximations for color, dynamic lights (via ded), etc...like if you load up BeautifulDOOM into GZDB2...you can see all the glorious lights, glows, etc. I know, pie-in-the-sky, but hey...I can dream!
You'll have to edit your DED files in SLADE, but support for them in GZDB is unlikely to happen. You'd need to have a motivated programmer take up the project of making a Doomsday Builder fork, like there exist GZDB forks for 3DGE or SRB2.

Re: GZDB2 and non-GZDoom mapping.

by Graf Zahl » Sat Jul 16, 2016 16:51

pming wrote:but at various forums some of these fans seem to be "veteran DE'ers".
I think that's actually the problem with them. DE is not particularly popular as a modding engine, so most of those "veterans' " knowledge is probably mostly from hearsay without ever having verified it.

Re: GZDB2 and non-GZDoom mapping.

by pming » Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:35

Hiya!
Eruanna wrote:Tools can be adapted and changed to fit any situation. GZDB was never designed for DE and that itself will lend some handicap in using it in such a way, but there's nothing that prohibits it, and it's quite possible to use the config file system and simply add DE's own specials to allow it to map specially for DE. It's quite likely you will never even have to touch the source code in order to do this.

I don't know if it's DE fans or developers saying you can't (or shouldn't) use GZDB, but taking such a stance is one way to ensure fewer people will ever use DE.
Yeah, I figured such. :) The crazy thing is that DE, 'technically' uses the same 'specials' as vanilla DOOM/Hexen/Heretic/Strife. There are no slopes, no ACS in DOOM or Heretic, no individual brightness for just a floor or just a ceiling in a sector, etc. It has the capability to add in some of that...but you would have to do it via DED or XG (or the new "DoomsdayScript" for DE2, which is in development; DDayScript actually sounds pretty freaking nice to me...and I'm not a programmer... :) ). It still doesn't have slopes, but that is on the radar of Skyjake and the other part-time devs. So, basically, if you make a "vanilla" map for DOOM/Hexen/Heretic/Strife, you are good to go.

I had some success 'updating' the jDOOM config for use with Heretic (almost identical engines, originally, afaik). Hexen? Not so much. :( But I'm not above giving it another shot! :)

As for the "can't/shouldn't use GZDB", I think fans...but at various forums some of these fans seem to be "veteran DE'ers". I don't *think* there were any official developers, but I'm not positive. I definitely agree with you...and have even said similar in some of these other posts elsewhere...with such statements basically discouraging mappers. I'm sure they weren't meant as such, probably more along the lines of "no, because DE2 is coming along and things will change".

One interesting thing I did hear was that DE2 mapping may be able to be done more or less "in-engine". I have *no* idea how this will be achievable, but being able to be running DE2 and then switch to an editor mode and make changes, then just play it right then and there...sounds a bit too dreamy to me. Basically, GZDB's visual mode...but with "game mode", not just "visual mode". We'll see....probably in about 3 to 6 more years. Good thing I a patient man... I can wait. :)

Until then....I'm off to dive back into making my own Hexen.config file for DE... Okay. You people sit tight, and keep the home fires burning. And if I'm not back by dawn...call the president.

(bonus points for any who know where that quote is from...)

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Re: GZDB2 and non-GZDoom mapping.

by Rachael » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:42

Tools can be adapted and changed to fit any situation. GZDB was never designed for DE and that itself will lend some handicap in using it in such a way, but there's nothing that prohibits it, and it's quite possible to use the config file system and simply add DE's own specials to allow it to map specially for DE. It's quite likely you will never even have to touch the source code in order to do this.

I don't know if it's DE fans or developers saying you can't (or shouldn't) use GZDB, but taking such a stance is one way to ensure fewer people will ever use DE.

Re: GZDB2 and non-GZDoom mapping.

by pming » Thu Jul 14, 2016 23:15

Hiya!

Thanks for the reply! :) I knew GZDB2 could be used for other, re: vanilla, mapping...but some other folks around the 'net were quite adamant about it "not going to work because it's built specifically for GZDoom" (mostly from, oddly enough, Doomsday Engine folk; as I said, a lot of DE 'fans' are closet programmers and probably haven't done any mapping other than the mapping equivalent of "programmer art"...no offense to programmers).

I think I've exhausted my pleas for any info or stuff that others have done with regards to making mapping easier for DE. Guess I'll have to just start hittin' the books and tinkering around with stuff.

Thanks again for the info. :)

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Re: GZDB2 and non-GZDoom mapping.

by Rachael » Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:15

Q1: No. GZDB can be adapted to mod for Doomsday, though it will take some significant modification. How deep, I do not know, though. It's possible you can just use a config (it should be compatible with DB2 configs) and be done with that.

Q2: I do not know

Q3: Absolutely not! If you want to mod for DE, use the tools at your disposal to do so. Just because GZDB lacks any DE-centricity does not mean it will not work. Ultimately, in the interim, Slade3 might work for covering some of DE's features in special cases where GZDB might not - if that situation ever even happens. Otherwise you can use a regular Doom-on-Doom config and just manually type in DE's specials by hand and it should allow it and handle them just fine. Or you can just also create your own DE config (it's pretty simple, it's all in a text file) and you might even consider sharing that with others. Take THAT, nay-sayers!

Saying GZDB cannot and should not be used to handle Doomsday features is just utter nonsense. You won't get all the special sprinkle-sparkle goodies that GZDB is known for with it, but it should still have the ever famous DB2 functionality that goes with it, and it should work just fine regardless. It's not like MaxED crippled GZDB to not work with anything else.

GZDB2 and non-GZDoom mapping.

by pming » Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:03

Hiya!

I was talking with some folks over on the Doomsday Engine forum about the lack of DE information with regards to mapping for it...and that even the SLADE3 devs don't really know how/what DE handles so that they could develop, say, "compatibility" with DE (map-building wise). As it stands, DE is freaking *gorgeous* (IMHO), and with DED and XG (it's 'scripting lang' for adding goodies), it has the potential for SO-O much more!

Ahem. Anyhoo...during one of my chats, one or two folk have been trying to tell me that me using GZDB2 for DE mapping (I use either the jDOOM config for DOOM/2, or the pure Hexen in Hexen or Heretic in Heretic) is a loosing battle because "it (GZDB2) will never work well because it's built for GZDoom". I've tried to explain that it's the Config and Include stuff that it looks at, and I tried to write my own for Hexen and Heretic, but was having difficulty with Hexen in particular. That, as far as I know, there isn't anything really "Hard-Coded" into GZDB2 that is GZDoom specific and will automatically be assumed no matter what config you choose (like, say "Hexen in Hexen format"). Am I wrong in this assumption?

My main question(s) over there were more along the line of "suggestive questions"; e.g., "Man, it sure would be nice if DE had more support for mappers...", and "Hey, does anyone have a GZDB2 Config file for a 'jHexen' or 'jHeretic'?", etc. To my dismay, I'm getting either silence or a weird feeling of "Oh, you're one of those 'artistic' types who wants to make pretty maps for DE...sorry, we thought you were a programmer". It's almost like DE doesn't want anyone to make maps for it. :shock:

Don't get me wrong, the folks over there in the DE forums are generally nice. I have never been yelled at, swore/cursed at, called 'stupid' or anything like that. It's just that the pure ambivalence with regards to working with/for the mapping community is so noticeable.

So...
Q1: Is GZDB2 "specific to GZDOOM" that non-GZDOOM mapping is not going to work?

Q2: Are there any plans to write (or figure out how to) a full-on "DE" config? Or separate ones (Hexen, Heretic, DOOM, DOOM2, etc)

Q3: Should I just give up on learning/mapping for DE until, say, the early 2020's, when there might be more 'artsy-fartsy-mappers' love? (ok, that last part sounded...weird...)

I'd LOVE to map for DE (Hexen and Heretic in particular), using GZDB2, with full DED access in-editor. It'd be even sweeter if it could 'read', say, "materials.ded" and then interpret that into a 'gl equivalent' for showing in the editor (like GLDEFS show up for GZDB2 DOOM2), and even better if we could also get approximations for color, dynamic lights (via ded), etc...like if you load up BeautifulDOOM into GZDB2...you can see all the glorious lights, glows, etc. I know, pie-in-the-sky, but hey...I can dream!

Thanks for ready this mini-novel! Sorry it's so long! :oops:
^_^

Paul L. Ming

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