Need Help With New Resources

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Enjay » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:54

[edit] This post has taken things on to a new page. Just in case you miss it, I answered the MOD1 question on the previous page. [/edit]

OKay, lamp colours issue was much as expected : skin and brightmap being coloured red.

The following file uses your DECORATE and DOOMDEFS (albeit cut down so only the goth lamps are present). I didn't tweak the light colours at all but now that things are working, perhaps the blue could be a tiny, tiny bit more cyan-like (increase the green value slightly - curently 0 ) to make it appear a bit brighter (or maybe it's fine as-is) and perhaps use attenuation as already discussed.

I have included new skins. The blue and white lamps now have their own skins and because there is now a red and blue option, I made the red one slightly redder too.

The brightmap has been greyscaled so that it suits all of the skins.

I also included "off" versions of all skins. You may want to use them or you may decide that the off versions look better using the grey skin (although the veiny part over the globe still has a reddish hint to it). My only concern is that switching a lamp between one of the coloured versions and a grey "off" state might look a bit stark. With a bit of additional work, it would be possible to create coloured "on" versions that are grey where the light logically wouldn't hit them.

As ever, let me know if you need any changes.

As I said, the following file contains the modified Goth lamps but all other entries have been trimmed out (the map has been updated to have the modified lamps too).

As before, all skins are compatible with all models so just mix and match as you see fit in modeldefs.

http://www.aspectsweb.co.uk/enjay/doom/ ... loured.pk3

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Rex Claussen » Sun Oct 07, 2018 13:44

Ha, ha, yes! Those are perfect. The blue is precisely what I had been going for. (Although, I might make the red lamp a bit redder.)

Also, I did get the spacelamp to spawn. I must have mixed and matched POSS & MOD1, because I could have sworn that I started out with POSS, and then changed to MOD1. The only thing is, that when summoned, the actor spawns at ground level, while the other lamps spawn at the player's mid-height. The relevant properties are identical:
Spoiler:
Perhaps the property is built into the model. No matter; when I place it into the map editor I'll assign it the proper height. I brought this up as a curiosity.

It all looks splendid now. Thanks.

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Enjay » Sun Oct 07, 2018 16:27

Glad it's what you wanted. :D


On the lamp position thing, the origin of the Gene-Tech model is right in the middle whereas the other lamp has the origin underneath it.

Image

Image

Neither is particularly wrong nor right, merely the way they are. Having the origin below the actor (like the Xen lamps) probably makes more sense in Doom given that Doom item heights start at the bottom but in an actor like this, it really doesn't matter.

I can alter it if needs be but, as you said, all you need to do is set the Z coordinate appropriately in WADAuthor (I assume that's still your editor of choice). If you really wanted it shifted up, another (perhaps easier) option would be to use ZOffset in your MODELDEF. (You could try something like "ZOffset 24" for starters and adjust to suit (I'm not sure of the exact size of the model)). ZOffset can be used to shift the model's appearance up/down in game without actually having to edit the model file itself.

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Rex Claussen » Mon Oct 08, 2018 15:00

Thanks for the explanation. No need to made any modifications, as what the game needs can easily be adjusted by editing the actot’s properties in the editor or via the MODELDEF.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I read the ZDooM wiki on light attenuation but can’t figure out how to incorporate that feature into a pointlight definition for our lamps. It seems like the wiki is talking about how to define something new. Am I missing something?

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Enjay » Mon Oct 08, 2018 22:43

Example:

Code: Select all

// Gothic Lamp
pointlight XENLAMP01
{
    color 1.0 0.15 0.15
    size 96
    // front, high, side
    offset 16 64 0
    attenuate 1
}
As I mentioned before, you might want to increase the size slightly as attenuated lights tend to not look quite so bright. However, I just tried the above and it looked reasonable without any further tweaking.

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Rex Claussen » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:02

Ah, okay. I understand now. Thanks.

(On a side note, I must say that the wiki is sometimes not very reader-friendly. As if the articles have been written by a computer programmer, rather than a ZDooM user.)

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Enjay » Tue Oct 09, 2018 19:41

Some articles certainly can be a bit brief/confusing/unclear/incomplete/inaccurate but I feel that the vast majority are good enough to provide the help needed when I'm looking things up (and some are very good).

It's worth remembering that the articles are created by a pretty varied group of people with varying skills in English (regardless of whether they are native speakers or not) and varying experience with writing documentation. When it comes down to it, a lot of work has been put in and it's actually a pretty vast and approaching fully comprehensive document for the game's features. It's certainly a lot better than no documentation and it takes the pressure off the developers to write documentation.

The option always exists for anyone to edit and improve articles if they see a need and have the necessary skills and time to do so (or, if not, report problems on the Wiki thread over at ZDoom and ask for/suggest improvements). I haven't done much editing of it because, most of the time, the articles I look at are OK for what I need and I find the Wiki editing format a bit clumsy too, but I have made a few minor tweaks over the years. I guess the biggest common "complaint" that I have is lack of examples in some of the articles but I rarely add any because the reason I'm looking is that I need examples and don't have one of my own. ;)

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Rex Claussen » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:32

Agreed, that the ZDooM wiki is an excellent, and widely-encompassing resource.

I wasn't complaining about the use (or misuse) of language, as I understand the breadth of ZDooM users. I was really referring to the skimpiness (or occasional lack) of explanation in some instances. And, yes, the absence of examples results in further research being required.

I went back into the light attenuation article and, to be fair, it is quite clear. I first read the article on my cell phone while on a plane, and I probably didn't read it carefully enough. I must have been in a mood to vent when I complained about the wiki. [Is it too late for a retraction? Heh.]

But staying on topic: I added attenuation, but didn't really see much difference. Is a dedicated graphics card required (such as for brightmaps)? I am using hardware acceleration, but the graphics chip is integrated into the computer's system board. [At some point, I'll check out the lamps on my older computer with a dedicated video card.]

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Enjay » Wed Oct 10, 2018 18:05

Understood about the Wiki. I wasn't really trying to counter your points; I was merely voicing my appreciation for it and the effort put in to get it as good as it is. As editing documents and even general software documentation goes, I'd say it stacks up pretty well against others.

As for attenuated lights, the difference between attenuated lights and the earlier types is usually really quite subtle, even on my GTX1080. Generally, attenuated lights look more "realistic" in the way that they interact with scenery and models but it tends not to be an "oh my, that looks so much better" situation and more of just a feeling that the map looks good/better somehow. I have occasionally found situations where I preferred the effect of placing traditional point lights over the attenuated versions though.

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Rex Claussen » Tue Sep 14, 2021 14:03

Rex Claussen wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 14:10
3. A wall-mounted model of the Chaos Symbol. I have co-opted the Warhammer picture as a texture. However, as I am making this symbol a theme in the new Xen maps, I think it would be great to also have a model. This is an example of a simplified Chaos Symbol. I'm guessing this will need to be created from scratch.
In all of the excitement generated by the lamp discussion, this one request flew under the radar. It would be fantastic to have a model of the Chaos symbol, which I am currently using as a texture. The model itself ought to be straightforward to create, as it's essentially a box. I envision a wall plate of some sort. I'll leave it up to you to decide the appropriate thickness as well as the texture to be used for the sides/top/bottom.

Thanks.

Here is the in-game texture:
xenchaos.jpg
xenchaos.jpg (25.89 KiB) Viewed 67 times

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Enjay » Tue Sep 14, 2021 19:06

Rex Claussen wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 14:03
The model itself ought to be straightforward to create, as it's essentially a box.
Only if you just want it to be as uninteresting as putting the texture directly onto a wall. :P

I've made a model but, honestly, it's not my best work. I know how to make it better but my modelling skills would mean that it would take me hours upon hours to get right. I started trying to do it the best way but my lack of skills soon caught up with me. I need to practice with better modelling tools rather than the simple ones that I use most of the time. They can do the job and are really easy to use, but for complex objects they are awful to work with. I have some better software that can do it more easily but I haven't had the time to master it properly yet (i.e. the software is more complex but, once learned, some jobs would be easier - like doing a good job of this model :P ).

So, anyway, I've made up something using basic shapes. As a result, it's not as good as it could be and it's not efficient in terms of use of faces and so on but I think that it might be good enough.

If you need something better, sending a message to Willem Sitters or someone else might prove more fruitful.

On with the result...
Image

At the moment, the frame is pretty unimaginative. I'm more or less using the texture as provided. If you want something fancier, let me know but I think it's OK as a starting point at least. Perhaps some Doom-like SUPPORT3-like texture on the sides or something might work?

I have made 2 models - one flat slab with the symbol on the front and one cube.

In the test map, the slab is scaled so that it is pretty close to 128x128 and 16 units deep and a smaller 64x64 and 8 deep.

I also made a cube with the symbol on all 6 faces.

Any of the above can be tweaked if it isn't what you are looking for.

However, because of the way GZDoom doesn't apply the 1:1.2 pixel ratio to models by default, I have provided two versions of everything. The left side of the map has the default 1:1 pixel scaling and the right uses the Doom 1:1.2 scaling. This could be useful if you want to fit the model into recesses or whatever.

I also didn't really do anything cunning with the decorate so actor size, gravity and whatever might all need to be tweaked and the actors (except the cubes) have no collision information.

Let me know what you think and if you want me to make any changes.

Attachment removed - see later post.

Let me know if you want me to persevere with this. I do have a couple of ideas how to make it a bit better. I've just realised there is a better way to make the arrows, for example.

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Enjay » Tue Sep 14, 2021 23:53

[edit] These skins have been superseded by the DL in the next post. [/edit]

I just made a higher resolution version of the model skin from the image on that Pinterest site you linked to:

Image
(It should download as a 1024x768 image.)

To test it, drop it into the models folder of the PK3 named Xenchaos.png

and here is one at the original resolution (512x256) but because it is based on the bigger picture, I think it looks a bit clearer in game.
Image

Feel free to try them out and decide which one you like best.

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Enjay » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:55

OK, I am much happier with this one.

Image
Image
Image

I completely reworked how I did the arrows. They are now, more or less, properly constructed and have a slightly better shape. The model overall is still just a mostly a collection of standard shapes, but it works better now IMO.

I spent a bit more time on the skin too. Overall its quality should be better. I made the frame out of Doom METAL and the sides from SUPPORT3. I also baked on a little lighting; it's subtle but the bottom of the flat slab model is darker than the top. The central skull face has been tweaked in the flat slab too.

The two models now use different skins. This is less efficient file-size wise but the differences between the two models made it necessary.

I have also adjusted the position of the flat slab model relative to where it sits versus the actor:
For the big one, place it 8 units from a wall and its back should be against the wall.
The smaller one is half the size, so 4 units from a wall places it against the wall.
They are still 16 and 8 units deep respectively.

After messing around with them in a map, this allowed me to position them most easily in most of the situations that I tried. As ever, it can be tweaked if it is not to your taste.

I reworked the map a little too so that I provided some map/sector/line/3D floor collision information for the models that need it.

Anyway, that's about as good as I can get them right now but if you have any ideas for changes, just let me know.
Chaos_HLa.pk3
(499.8 KiB) Downloaded 4 times

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Rex Claussen » Wed Sep 15, 2021 16:40

Those models are fantastic, and far surpass my expectations! [But then, that's par for the course when you're working on something.]

I love the rotating cube, which I plan to use in the Xen "temple" map or sure. Also, the clearly delineated 3D surface of the Chaos symbol on the slab is a masterful touch. I would have been satisfied with a flat surface, but the 3D version is far superior to a flat one.

Surprisingly, I think the 1:1.2 pixel ratio model looks better. I know that is counter-intuitive, but that's how it seems to me.

Many thanks, boss.

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Re: Need Help With New Resources

Post by Enjay » Wed Sep 15, 2021 17:07

Glad you like them. As you can probably tell, I really wasn't happy with the fist version but I think that things turned out OK in the end.

I didn't see much point in not making the symbol at least a bit 3D. Without doing that, pretty much the same effect could have been achieved by just using Doom architecture.

However, you mentioning it, and the temple, gave me an idea:
Image
Easy to do. I just deleted the background box and moved the star backwards a little.
StarOnly.pk3
(12.04 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
Load this one on top of the previous file because it uses a skin from that one.


I actually agree with your appraisal of the 1:1.2. I think it's just because the model looks a lot like a texture and every other texture in the game world uses that ratio. It also makes it a lot easier to slot the model into Doom-sized recesses in the wall etc - which is apparent from the test map.

If you need anything else done to them, let me know.

[edit]Oh, and I just noticed that all the chaos symbol actors in the first test file have been given tids. Just to be clear, in case it causes confusion, that was an accident caused by me re-using a test file. The tids are not required for anything. [/edit]

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